In Egypt, 30 percent like Hizballah (66 percent don’t). 49 percent are favorable toward Hamas (48 percent are negative); and 20 percent smile (72 percent frown) at al-Qaida. Roughly speaking, one-fifth of Egyptians applaud the most extreme Islamist terrorist group, while around one-third back revolutionary Islamists abroad. This doesn’t tell us what proportion of Egyptians want an Islamist government at home, but it is an indicator.
In Egypt, 82 percent want stoning for those who commit adultery; 77 percent would like to see whippings and hands cut off for robbery; and 84 percent favor the death penalty for any Muslim who changes his religion.
Asked if they supported “modernizers” or “Islamists” only 27 percent said modernizers while 59 percent said Islamists'
Thanks Maury for posting the link.
This is not surprising. The leader of the 9/11 hijackers was an Egyptian. AQ's #2 is an Egyptian. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Egypt. The Egyptians like to think they are pious Muslims and they say they want Islamic law, even if they really don't know what Islamic law really means and how it will be enforced.
3 out of 10 Egyptians (and 2 out of 5 Egyptian women) are illiterate. 30% of Egyptians are not educated enough to even read the Qur'an, which instructs Muslims to respect Jews and Christians. Probably 2 out of 5 Egyptian women think that female circumcision is a requirement of Islam. Regardless of what the Qur'an says and whether Egyptians actually follow the Qur'an, it (Islam) should have nothing to do with Egypt's constitution. Egypt's constitution, which should resemble America's (without gun rights), must supersede Islam. Same with Iraq's constitution, which still needs amending, by the way.
Islam has been mixed with politics since the beginning of Islam. It's time to stop. Egyptians may learn the hard way, like Iraqis have. I hope not.
I wonder how many Egyptians would want an Islamic government if a sovereign contiguous Palestinian state emerges and East Jerusalem becomes its capital.
56 comments :
'CAIRO, 8 March 2006 (IRIN) - Nesma and a group of fellow women farm workers sit out in the midday sun after a morning of harvesting spinach leaves from plush green fields in Fayyoum governorate in Lower Egypt, 80kms south of Cairo.
Living in one-room mud houses with their husbands and children, they manage to eke out a living on between $0.80 and $1.60 a day each.
None of the women in the group knows how to read, nor do they express much desire to learn. For them, there is no choice but to passively accept their circumstances and little point in trying to change their lives.
"Life goes on, and this is my lot," said Nesma, in her mid 40s. "Even if I were to learn how to read, would it make a difference? And, even so, do you think my husband would let me get a job in town, away from him?"
She, like many rural women, takes chronic poverty and gender-related disadvantages for granted. "Reading doesn’t make a woman socially acceptable or useful," Nesma said. "Here, in the villages, we women grow up to marry and have children. That is our role in life. Anything else is a luxury." '
Mojo,
Look man. Muslims cannot separate Islam from the rule of law. We as muslims cannot treat Quranic law with little value, yet treat secular man made laws with high value. Otherwise we wouldn't be muslim, or in other words, we would be hypocrites. I am not suggesting to impose Islamic law on non-muslims, this is not my point. My point is, as muslims, we respect Islamic law.
You may be secular, non-muslim, or whatever. But please know that we, the muslim majority, highly value islamic law. If you agree with democracy, then support the rights of the majority. If you feel that where you live in America has a better system, that is cool with me. Just respect other peoples beliefs.
Mojo, lets say the Muslim Brotherhood wins a significant chunk of any future elections, are you willing to accept the choice of the people? Or will you only believe in democracy when you want to?
Look at what this zionist western orientalist Maury says:
"If 84% of Egyptians oppose freedom of religion, Egyptians don't deserve freedom of any kind. Secular Egyptians should run like hell, while they still have a chance."
People like Maury have no principles, no dignity, and are hypocrites. They don't follow any particular ideology, but an agenda. They believe in democracy when it suits their interests. They back dictatorships when it suits their agenda. They don't care about anyone but themselves.
Maury,
Who the hell are you to dictate to the Arabs what they do and do not want?
Respect the will of the majority.
I'm not dictating anything for anyone. Wouldn't want to if I could. But, I won't lend moral support to a democracy movement when 84% of them have no clue what freedom means, and would deny it to their neighbor at every opportunity.
The Nazi Party took over Germany through the ballot. Respect THAT. Sometimes the majority is clueless and ignorant. In Egypt, the VAST majority has no concept of what freedom actually entails. Pity the fools.
Maury,
Are you comparing Islam to Nazism?
This is hate speech.
This just proves Maurys deep hatred for Islam and Muslims. This is his agenda. He is against Islam, and this is what he lives for.
On another note,
Are you guys watching the news? Mubaraks thugs are stabbing people and beating people. They even beat up Anderson Cooper.
But you have to admit 40 lashes for drinking alcohol is pretty cool
"Are you comparing Islam to Nazism?
This is hate speech."
Depends on whose Islam we're discussing. Wahhabiism is worse than Naziism imo. They hang people by their toes for having a bible.
An Islam that stones a woman accused of adultery is no better than Naziism either. 82% of Egyptians are on that page. That's not hate speech. That's just how someone who appreciates freedom sees 7th century barbarism.
It is worth remembering that the punishment of execution by stoning was not invented by Islam; it was inherited from Judaism.
Here's an interesting one on Hamas and Egypt: Hamas worried upheaval in Arab world will spill into Gaza.
84% think a man should be killed for choosing who and how he worships....so yes...absolutely. That's as bad, or worse, than Nazi's. Freedom of religion is a basic, inalienable right. Anyone who can't comprehend that, has no business making decisions for others. They don't deserve the right to vote. Period.
Article 18 from the Universal Declarion of Human Rights adopted by the UN in 1948 states....
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
What year is it again Ayrab Jayrab? 2010 or 710 AD ?
Maury,
Let us Muslims deal with how we want to treat each other, as long as the majority agree to it. Let us decide for ourselves what we want for laws.
And yes, Muslim law is from the 7th century, our Religion is for all time and I am a supporter of Islamic laws. If you call me a "nazi" for supporting shariah law, then you have just called 1.5 Billion people "nazis". All this proves your war against Islam and muslims.
lol your an idiot. You have no idea what your talking about.
Here's some food for thought for you and other judeo-christians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLsJwtxBil8
P.S Jesus came to confirm the law of Moses, and he has said this in the bible.
This is some of what the Quran says on slavery Ayrab Jayrab. Is it good "for all time" as you proudly proclaimed earlier, or is it bullshit that won't fly in the 21st century?
4:36 "(Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and (the slaves) whom your right hands possess."
4:92 "It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood- money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave."
23:5-6 "And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess."
24:31 "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves."
24:58 "O ye who believe! Let your slaves, and those of you who have not come to puberty, ask leave of you at three times (before they come into your presence)."
33:25-26 "Allah repulsed the disbelievers in their wrath; they gained no good. Allah averted their attack from the believers. Allah is ever Strong, Mighty. And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
33:50 "O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war."
33:55 "It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves."
Maury,
Lets get to one issue at a time. I will talk about slavery but we first were talking about apostasy. Now, have you watched this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLsJwtxBil8
As a Judeo-Christian society, what do you have to say about this?
I am waiting for a response
I tried watching it, but the lagging was horrible. Makes no difference, since I could give a flying shit what some clown on youtube thinks anyway.
If 82% of Jews thought an adulteress should be stoned, I would be adamently opposed to holding elections in New York City. I don't know where you're coming from on this "Judeo-Christian" thing. Jews moved past the stoning thing before Mohammed was a gleam in his daddy's eye. And Christians NEVER believed in it.
Maury that is a pussy response. Now watch the video. Its about the text and not about the person.
Alright, I watched the stupid thing. Yes, I'd like to bitch smack both of them, as well as the barbarian who persuaded me to watch it. What the HELL is your point?
Here's a video for you Ayrab Jayrab. Forget the text. What's important is how the text was interpreted and applied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8-Xf20EQLM
Stoned for saying Jehovah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkbqzWVHZI&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Okay Maury, I'm glad you watched the video. The penalty for Apostasy in the bible is death.
So, before I even get to The Islamic stance on apostasy, will you acknowledge that the bible says the punishment for the apostate is to be put to death?
Sure, I'll acknowledge that. It's an historical fact. It's also a fact that Leviticus was written some 3000 years ago. What century are we in again?
Fact is, you think that dark age bullshit should be practiced today. So do the 82% of Muslims in Egypt who support stoning someone for adultery. That's just barbaric Ayrab Jayrab. Pathetically barbaric.
AJ, is Islamic law being enforced in the Canadian town you live in?
Maury,
90% of Americans are Religious, and the majority of them are bible believing Christians.
Does it make sense to say "I'm a christian", yet you dont believe in the bible? that, my friend, is called hypocrisy.
Also, if you believe the law of apostasy is nazi-like or even worse than that, do you then support banning "nazi" books, which, in your definition would include the bible?
Would you call the Judeo-Christians who believe in the law to be nazis?
Mojo,
lol, what do you think?
I think Canadian law supersedes Islamic law. I think that's the way it should be.
So would you like to move to KSA or Iran?
"Does it make sense to say "I'm a christian", yet you dont believe in the bible? that, my friend, is called hypocrisy."
While it's not my intention to give bible lessons here, you're way wide of the mark if you think Christians should practice Moses Law. The long and short of it is, Jesus instituted a New Covenant. Christians follow his teachings, and are saved by faith and grace, not works.
Even Jews don't practice that medieval crap. While they believe in Moses Law, they also believe it's up to each generation to interpret those laws for itself. Maybe that's the problem I have with Islam. You've got too many people stuck in the 7th century trying to interpret the Quran for today's believers.
lol Maury,
You are wrong. Jesus came to CONFIRM the law, not to abolish it. If you don't believe me then read it for yourself. Also, I can find you verses in the New Testament as well regarding punishments for various crimes, all spoken by JESUS.
Also, you are the one who was bringing accusations against islam, so i thought it would be nice to give you a taste of your own medicine :)
"Jesus came to CONFIRM the law, not to abolish it."
Wrong. He came to FULFILL the law. Big difference. You aren't going to beat me over the head with the bible. I grew up on it.
Maury,
You are so brainwashed its not even funny. You don't know anything about shariah except what you have seen on youtube and from western orientalists.
As far as "death" to an apostate in Islam, you are mistaken. You fail to understand the level of Islamic Jurisprudence (Fiqh). You do not understand the Penal code either (Hadd (fixed punishment), Ta'zir (dicretionary punishment), Qisas (retaliation). Your reliance on western orientalists have made you into an islamophobe.
"You fail to understand the level of Islamic Jurisprudence (Fiqh)."
I never claimed to be an Islamic scholar. I stand by my opinion that, if 84% of Egyptians support killing apostates, and 82% of Egyptians support stoning adulterers, Egypt isn't ready for democracy.
Not gonna work.
Maury, democracy doesn't necessarily mean tolerance or freedom for all. Democracy in Iraq did not bring tolerance for all Iraqis. Democracy is a process, it's supposed to be government by the people. Sometimes the people say and do stupid things.
Maury,
WOW. First of all, in terms of shariah law in general. The state appoints judges that specialize in Shariah to apply the law. This means that any layman with his own interpretation is rejected.
In terms of killing apostates. The scholars of alazhar university (considered the highest religios learnign in the muslim world) do not approve it as a hadd. The law only applies to those who, after apostizing, wage war on muslims. And, even after waging war, they are given a chance to repent before the death penalty applies. This is the understanding of the muslim scholars and even the most hardline as Sayyid Qutb, Ibn Taymiyyah etc.
In terms of stoning adulters, muslim consensus is that the unmarried adulterer is not to be stoned, but lashed and the married adulterer stoned. YOU may find this a harsh punishment, especially when you live in a society where this practice is so widespread. But this is a various serious crime in Islam and in the muslim world. Just because it is so widespread in your society and common, it doesnt make it any less serious. Also, I have heard an opinion that there isnt enough evidence in the Sunnah for stoning to be a law, but this is a minority opinion.
Oh, and the law of adultery is also in the bible :)
I find it curious that the highest Islamic scholars don't approve of killing apostates, but 84% of Egyptian Muslims do. Who the heck are they taking instruction from, Zarqawi?
I happen to think adultery is a serious moral crime. I can't respect a man who can't keep it in his pants. Still, I believe it's up to God to punish sinners, not us. That's the beef I have with Al Qaida. I think they're little men trying to play God. I can think of one particular character who tried to usurp God's authority, and he wasn't appreciated for it one bit. Starts with an S and ends with an N.
"Let us Muslims deal with how we want to treat each other, as long as the majority agree to it."
The problem is how you treat non-Muslims and former Muslims.
well, if you don't believe me, believe the grand Mufti of Egypt:
Jumu’ah 13 Rajab 1428 AH corresponding to 27 August 2007 CE regarding the
fatwa of the Mufti of Egypt wherein he allows new Muslims to apostatize back to Christianity.2
The points made in the article are
1. “The fatwa was made by the Egyptian Mufti Dr ’Ali Juma’3 wherein he allowed apostasy from Islaam for the Egyptian religious establishment which controls three main authorities: al-Azhar (as the highest religious body in Egypt),4the Ministry of Endowment which is responsible for da’wah and supervises the (Imaams on the) minbars and then the Egyptian Daar ul-Iftaa’ which is linked to the Egyptian Ministry of Justice.”
2. The Mufti of Egypt said, as is reported in the article: “From a religious perspective,
the act of abandoning one’s religion is a sin punishable by Allaah on the Day of Judgement. If the case in question is one of merely rejecting eemaan, then there is no worldly punishment. If however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society. Otherwise, the matter is left until the Day of Judgement and is not to be dealt with in the life of
this world.”
As to the poll, im not familiar with it or what was asked exactly, or the wording of the questions.
"Does it make sense to say "I'm a christian", yet you dont believe in the bible? that, my friend, is called hypocrisy."
No, it is not. The Bible is a whole library of books, of varied origin and date. It includes legends, allegories, prophetic rants, collections of proverbs, love poems, and some not very accurate history. There is no requirement for a Christian to believe that every word in it is literally true.
What Christians are expected to believe is in the creeds (several similar versions) which are recited during church services.
There are also many who find some of the Jesus teachings inspiring, without believing that Jesus is God.
Maury,
In terms of Adultery. Yes, I agree it is a severe punishment. But, the more severe a punishment, the more it is a deterrent. And I dont believe the punishment should be limited only to the afterlife, because adultery has a serious and real effect on the corruption of society, having kids with no parents to care for them etc
also, the punishment for adultery is also a law in the bible. whether you agree that christians should follow the law of moses or not, it is clear that moses himself followed them, so how can you claim something is barbaric when it was prescribed for moses and his people?
"so how can you claim something is barbaric when it was prescribed for moses and his people?"
Because it IS barbaric.
bar·bar·ic/bärˈbarik/Adjective
1. Savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal.
2. Primitive; unsophisticated
"Non-Muslims have full rights under Muslim rule. If there is any discrimination then it is the shortcomings of the people and not Islam."
Unfortunately the shortcoming seems to be universal. Look how first the Jews and now the Christians have been driven out of Iraq. (Not to mention the Yezidis.)
"this is a whole other topic altogether."
No, the big problem is how Muslims actually behave, not some ideal tolerant Muslim who may exist somewhere. The actual level of tolerance is no greater than that of the Christians hundreds of years ago.
lol, so your saying God's law that he prescribed to Moses is "barbaric"?
if thats what you think, fine, you are entitled to your opinion. i have a different belief
That depends AJ. Is it savagely cruel? Exceedingly brutal? Primitive and unsophisticated? If so, that's the very definition of barbaric. Don't take my word for it. Consult a dictionary.
don cox,
i dont know if you have noticed, but iraq has been a bloodbath for anybody and everybody. sunnis and shias have suffered just as much as the christians have. and in iraq the smaller you are the less chances you have for survival. its called civil war. its definately 100% wrong, and i dont think using the civil war in iraq to further your arguments are fair
There's no reason why anyone other than an Orthodox Jew should care what Moses thought about adultery.
Laws should be decided democratically by the citizens (or their representatives), according to what seems best from time to time. I see no reason for laws against adultery, except that it can be a ground for divorce.
What unmarried adults do in private is their own business and is no concern of the state.
lol Maury,
you have to understand the wisdom behind the law. anyways ive been awake now for 23 hours and i want to catch some shut eye. it was nice talking to you, and salam.
Laws cannot be decided by deduction from something in a sacred book, especially not in any country where various citizens have different sacred books (or none). And that means most countries in the 21C.
Some democracies are barbaric, sadly. In many countries it doesn't take much to convince a majority of (fearful and ignorant) people that killing a gay man is the right thing to do. Sometimes it just takes a quote from the Qur'an or Hadith, or just a fatwa from the fundamentalist du jour.
"Mr. Kato's death comes as Uganda prepares to elect a new parliament that will again consider a bill to make homosexuality punishable, in some cases, by death. The bill is something of an American ideological export, since it was inspired after visits from American advocates for the idea that homosexuality can be cured."
Maury,
Democracy is a right, not a privilege. More importantly, it is a cure for ignorance and intolerance, not an earned reward for liberalism.
We need to stand in solidarity with the Egyptian intellectuals who are clearly playing a major part leading this movement, who are only now openly expressing themselves for the first time, and do not seem to represent the fundamentalist hordes.
And how is it fair to the 25% of the population (20 million people!) who don't want to kill apostates that they should have no freedom because of how some confused illiterates answered a survey question.
Anyway, I doubt the veracity of any survey taken in a dictatorship where free information is not available and whose takers may be minded at every answer.
Ali Abdullah Salih and Husni Mubarak are already cooperative with the CIA, so nothing will be lost if they are overthrown
Dolly, don't forget that those are CIA trained camels too. And all the petrol bombs and rocks? You guessed it - Lockheed-Martin.
"Democracy is a right, not a privilege."
Yet, humans managed to go at least 10,000 years without it. I don't like Mubarak any more than the next guy K. I hate dictators. I hate repression of any kind. My fear for Egypt is that they taste freedom for a moment, then fall back into darkness for who knows how long.
I was in the Persian Gulf when the Shah fell. We all had our fingers crossed. We knew the Shah was a brutal asshole. Nobody knew how the revolution would play out, but they would at least be better off than before, right? That's where we are today with Egypt. We have our fingers crossed, and we're pretty damned sure Egyptians will be better off. But we've been wrong before, haven't we?
If K-hole is insinuating that the U.S. has not given cash to Mubarak's regime, that would be incorrect. Rachel Maddow says Egypt was #2 only to Israel in U.S. backing
Did Rachel tell you that Egypt gets the money every year to keep the peace treaty with Israel? It's not something the US does out of love for Mubarak. The next government will get the same payoff.
I'm insinuating that U.S. support has help subvert terrorism, preserved peace with Israel, and deterred attacks on Egypt for three decades.
I'm insinuating that U.S. weaponry we see in the hands of the army on the street, so far has not been used to massacre the pro-democracy protesters.
I'm insinuating that there are dozens upon dozens of dictators that receive no aide from the U.S. and still manage to brutally maintain control.
I'm insinuating that dictatorship ultimately holds power by silencing media and free thought, not with peace treaties.
I'm insinuating that the tools of repression don't require international conspiracies, but can be as simple as camels, stones and secrete police.
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