Monday, August 01, 2011

Conservative American blogger justifies Norwegian terrorist's attack

Think Progress: 'Popular hate blogger Pam Geller has received scrutiny in recent days as the public became aware that the right-wing terrorist in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, had praised her blog and thoroughly cited her writing in his political manifesto. After a number of blogs made the connection, as well as the New York Times, the Atlantic, and other major outlets, Geller became incensed and began lashing out at her critics.

In a post defending herself yesterday, Geller — who has called Obama “President Jihad” and claimed that Arab language classes are a plot to subvert the United States — reached a new low. Geller justifies Breivik’s attack on the Norwegian Labour Party summer youth camp because she says the camp is part of an anti-Israel “indoctrination training center.” She says the victims would have grown up to become “future leaders of the party responsible for flooding Norway with Muslims who refuse to assimilate, who commit major violence against Norwegian natives including violent gang rapes, with impunity, and who live on the dole.”

To get her point across, Geller posts a picture of the youth camp children Breivik targeted. The picture was taken on the Utøya island camp about 24 hours before Breivik killed over 30 children, so it is likely Geller is mocking many of the victims. Under the picture, Geller writes: “Note the faces which are more MIddle [sic] Eastern or mixed than pure Norwegian.” '

Too see the pic and read more, click here.


Pisa said...

Here you go again. And, sure enough, here I am again.

Pam Geller is not trying to justify the murders. She's trying to say something else entirely, but sadly her main argument is burried by her usual flashy style.

Breivik was born, raised and educated in Norway. That's a fact leftist bloggers completely ignore. He wasn't born with Spencer's books on his lap. He grew up in a very liberal, open society, a welfare state, run by both a king and socialists - a little bit of a contradiction here, don't you think? What went wrong then? In what circumstances will a child grow up to become a criminal?

I used to be an avid reader of Geller's and Spencer's blogs myself not so long ago. I've even read Gates of Vienna and Fjordman, but I abandoned them quickly because they gave me cold chills right through the bones. You know, when you go through the whole spectrum - far left, far right, and about everything in between - you begin to understand that almost everybody gets something right sometimes. Even Geller.

There's more to that youth camp than meets the eye. They partnered with Fatah some 15 years ago. They kept that partnership during the second intifada, which was in fact a public endorsement of terrorism, in breach of the - wait for it - the Oslo accords!

Now we know that Breivik grew up in a country that publicly approves of and justify terrorism. He's a product of his own society - he was taught that terrorism pays off.

He might have sought confirmation for his own ideas on far-right blogs. However for the methods used he didn't have to go too far, since they are officially approved of by his own country.

C.H. said...

Well said Pisa...I couldn't have put it better myself.

Muhannad said...

So Breivik became a terrorist because of the Oslo accords. LOL

Pisa said...

LOL indeed, Muhannad.

He who goes to bed with terrorists might get up with a Breivik up his arse.

Isn't Muhannad the name of a sword? Or something other war-like?

Muhannad said...

So Norway went to bed with terrorists. Interesting. If Fatah & PLO are terrorists, what were Haganah and Irgun? Didn't terrorism pay off for them?

Yes "Muhannad" means sword. One of my cousins told me last year it actually means the sheath of a sword. In any case, it's the name my parents gave me. Most people call me Mo. Some people call me Mojo.

idit said...


The Haganah was not a terrorist org and the irgun role was not as big as you might think.

Muhannad said...

And how did terrorism pay off for the PLO? They lost 80% of Palestine, and they continue to lose more.

idit said...

"They lost 80% of Palestine" ?
I thought the PLO was established in 1964.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Good point, idit. But the PLO still lost. Terrorism did not pay off for them.

Pisa said...

By "he who goes to bed with terrorists" I meant Israel, the signatory of the Oslo accords, not Norway. Remember Igal Amir?

Of course Fatah and PLO are terrorists. Abbas provided the funds for the 1972 Munich massacre. He was on the Achile Lauro. He was lavishly rewarded later. Terrorism made him a president.

I hope nobody here will disagree that Arafat was indeed, to the end, a terrorist. He too was rewarded for his terrorist activities, with a Nobel peace prize, no less! That Peres and Rabin agreed to receive the same prize alongside a murderer only proves once again that the best of intentions are often just flagstones on the way to hell.

Terrorism did pay off big time for the PLO. The PA is one of the biggest recipients of foreign aid. There are more than 200 NGOs in the West Bank and Gaza, all loaded with "humanitarian aid", providing work for locals, spending their salaries in hotels, restaurants and shops. PLO officials are welcome everywhere in the world. Yes, terrorism is rewarded in our twisted world.

If you say that PLO lost because they don't have their own state yet, Iraqi Mojo, here's the sad truth: PLO do not want a state. They win without a state because Israel is seen by the whole world as the bully in the neighborhood, giving the PLO the legitimacy they need in order to continue using terror against us. They still dream of a Palestine from the river to the sea.

idit said...

I couldn't agree more, Pisa.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Was the Nobel Peace Prize given to Arafat to reward terrorism or because he abandoned terrorism and embraced diplomacy?

Pisa said...

Would you give the "daddy of the year" award to a man who raped his first daughter but promised he wouldn't rape the second?

By the way, one of the members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, Kare Kristiansen, resigned in 1994 in protest over the award of the peace prize to Arafat.

Iraqi Mojo said...

I don't believe Arafat deserved to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. Neither did Obama, in my opinion. But did the committee give him the prize to reward him for his terrorist ways?

Pisa, you wrote "Now we know that Breivik grew up in a country that publicly approves of and justify terrorism. He's a product of his own society - he was taught that terrorism pays off."

Do you really believe that Norway approves of terrorism? Do you really believe that terrorism paid off for the PLO? And do you really believe this is what Breivik was taught?

The Munich horror did get the PLO a lot of publicity, but it was negative publicity. It did not benefit the PLO or the Palestinian people in any way, despite what the surviving terrorist believed.

Yes the Palestinians receive a lot of help, including from the US government. Do people send money and help them to reward terrorism? I don't think so.

Pisa said...

You grew up in the US. I grew up in Europe. My parents survived the Holocaust - the humiliations, the fear, the hunger, the hatred. Then came the communism - with its beautiful rethoric and ugly realities. After a very brief period of respite, jews have been once again targeted, this time for being a kind of a fifth column, potential traitors by dint of their ethnicity. (My uncle, a journalist at one of the party newspapers, had to change his jewish name to a more "native" one)

Anti-semitism is ingrained in european culture and traditions. It wasn't "invented" by nazis, it was always there, barely beneath the surface most of the time. Throw in some arab oil and mostly socialist governments since WWII, and here's one hell of a recipe for the success of Middle-Eastern terrorism agains those pesky jews who dared keep on living.

If Europe in general is anti-semitic, some countries are more than others. Norway is the only european country where jewish Shechita is banned (but Muslim ritual slaughter is allowed). There you can see on national television the latest "joke" of a performer like Otto Jespersen, who said:

“I would like to take the opportunity to remember all the billions of fleas and lice that lost their lives in German gas chambers, without having done anything wrong other than settling on persons of Jewish background.”

For a country that sent half of its jews to concentration camps during WWII, when other scandinavian countries refused to do so, that's not funny.

Yes, Norway approves of terrorism, when it's in the Middle East and/or against jews. Here's what the norwegian ambassador to Israel had to say after the tragedy:

"We Norwegians view the occupation as the reason for terror against Israel. Many Norwegians still see the occupation as the reason for attacks against Israel. Whoever thinks this way, will not change his mind as a result of the attack in Oslo."

I wonder if "they norwegians" view the occupation as the reason for terror attacks against Israel before 1967.

Norway's ambassador to Israel publicly approved of and justified terrorism - the official position of Norway.

In this context, the decision of the Norwegian Nobel Committee to award the peace prize to Arafat might be seen as consistent to their traditional anti-semitic policies. I can't tell what they thought, but it looked like a reward for his terror activity against jews.

I'm aware that this obsession with jews and Israel might seem unreal to an american. It seems unreal to me, and I grew up with it. In fifth grade we studied the greatest romanian poet, whose poems I knew by heart since I was in kindergarten. One student wrote on the blackboard the anti-semitic verses this poet wrote near the end of his short life, sick with syphilis and half mad. This is the message she chose to hear from this unique artist - hatred and racism. We were 10 years old then. This was my first encounter with raw european anti-semitism.

I hope you understand now why I said that Breivik was taught that terrorism pays off. Blinded by anti-semitism, Norway's elites treats the terrorists as heroes.

Pisa said...

"The Munich horror did get the PLO a lot of publicity, but it was negative publicity. It did not benefit the PLO or the Palestinian people in any way, despite what the surviving terrorist believed."

I don't believe that terror can ever benefit a people. As for the PLO, this was their goal - kill and destroy - so from their point of view it did benefit them.

There are many reasons why different governments and NGOs give money to the PA. Those reasons don't matter much, not to me, not to Breivik. What we see is the end result, terrorists being paid by our governments. Terror attacks against us funded - knowingly or not, but who cares - by human rights activists. Oh well, some people are more human than others.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Your parents are Holocaust survivors? How do they feel about Breivik? Do they share your thoughts? You must have read this already:

'The teenagers who took part in Norway's ruling party youth camp in the island of Utoya met with Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere and demanded he recognize Palestine on Wednesday, two days before the deadly terror attack which left many of them dead.

Gahr Stoere told the youths that the Palestinians deserve a country of their own and that the occupation must end, Norwegian website Politisk reported. Several of the youths waved signs reading: "Boycott Israel." '

Iraqi Mojo said...

What part of Europe did you grow up in, Pisa? What do you think of Norman Finkelstein?

Pisa said...

My father passed away couple of years ago. He was the most gentle person I've ever known. My mother lives mostly in the past now. However, I know what they would have said about Breivik.

My parents have both been saved by romanian christians during WWII. Of course they didn't know each other then, but their stories are strikingly similar - good people risked their own lives to save theirs. They never told me anything about the atrocities they witnessed, especially my father who has been in forced labour camps. It just leaked here and there, quickly repressed. What they chose to remember and wanted my sister and I to know was the kindness of strangers. They would have condemned Breivik's despicable act even if the victims have been their worst enemies. And so do I.

Pisa said...

I grew up in Romania. I had a happy childhood despite the food shortage and other "benefits" of the socialism. Being an adult was a bit more difficult, and if you had a family to feed it could be extremely hard. I'll never forget my sister's despair when she couldn't find milk powder for her baby - and we lived in Bucharest, which was better supplied than the rest of the country. Socialism can be defined in just 4 words: it does not work.

Why Norman Finkelstein? You know, whatever my political views, I'd never agree with someone whose pen literally drips hatred. That includes another one of your sources, that very pissed off cousin. You also mentioned Chomsky as one of your sources.

The main reason I keep coming back to your blog is that you always question everything. I mean, with such sources, I would expect a dialogue between us to be almost impossible. However, you keep an open mind, unlike those mentioned above. There is still hope for you ;)

Camera has an analysis of Finkelstein's work (from the other part of the barricade):

Which brings us to the Holocaust and its alleged use by the zionists. To which I say that the arab leaders are now doing exactly what they accuse us of doing, deliberately keeping palestinian arabs in misery in order to exploit their suffering for their goals. How blind can a supposed intelectual like Finkelstein be to not see this? In their haste to bring about our destruction, arab leaders imitate our history which they also deny ever happened...try making heads or tails of this...

Iraqi Mojo said...

In college I knew a Romanian girl named Liria. She was so hot!

Iraqi Mojo said...

Are the Arabs keeping the Palestinians in misery? How?

madtom said...


UN refugee camps with no chance to immigrate ring a bell?

Pisa said...

How are Palestinian arabs kept in misery? Like this:

This is no pro-Israel site, so don't tell me my sources are biased. You can also check lebanese blogs like Beirut Spring for info.

Millions of ethnic germans were expelled from Eastern Europe after WWII, or fled for fear of revenge and communism. Most of them have been living there for generations. Where are the refugee camps for those people? Where is the UN Relief Agency for german refugees? Were are the outcries, the outrage, the NGOs, the UNHRC condemnations, the hysterical demands that these people's right of return should be granted?

Source (one of many, but I find BBC reporting accurate when it's not about jews):

madtom said...

I find it hard to believe Mojo would not have been aware and needed a link? But good link.

Muhannad said...

Mojo is aware of the injustice against Palestinians in Lebanon, but he is also aware that 60% of Jordanians are of Palestinian descent, and they have the same rights as Jordanians. Yes a few Arab states have not treated the Palestinians well, but treated them worse than Israel has? I don't think so. Israel drove the Palestinians out of their homes. The Lebanese are not allowing Palestinians refugees, who fled Israeli invasion and war, to have the same rights as "native" Lebanese. I agree that Lebanon should give Palestinians equal rights, but it is clear that in the last 50 years, Israel has been the biggest problem for the Palestinians. Israelis and conservative Americans have always deflected attention towards the way other Arab countries treat the Palestinians. Yes let's talk about the many ways the Palestinians have been screwed by just about everybody. Except the Norwegians.

madtom said...

How about in Iraq, where they were given privileges by the old regime, but hated by the people, or so I have heard? Being used is being used.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Yes the Palestinians have been used, in many ways, by many people. Saddam sent $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers. He was using the Palestinians to further the conflict.

Iraqi Mojo said...

And that is a good link. Honesty up front: "Palestinians were forced to flee or were expelled from their homes and lands at the time of the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 and again when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967."

Many Israelis are more honest about the history of the conflict than Americans, I tell ya.

madtom said...

You know "forced to flee" could have different interpretations, like forced to flee the conflict zone where heavy fighting was taking place.
I get the felling you read it different.

madtom said...

Just in time:

An award-winning Palestinian female journalist has been forced to go into hiding out of fear of being arrested by the Palestinian Authority security forces for covering a sit-in strike.

Over the weekend, the PA’s Preventive Security Force in the West Bank arrested her two brothers in an attempt to put pressure on her to turn herself in.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Forced to flee a conflict zone, and not allowed to return. Evidently conservative Americans are ok with the "not allowed to return" part. That is not surprising.

Iraqi Mojo said...

August 17, 2010:
Lebanon gives Palestinian refugees the right to work

Iraqi Mojo said...

Americans themselves (under Andrew Jackson) forced natives to flee and did not allow them to return, so Israel is only following the leader!

Pisa said...

Ach, the never ending thread. I thought I already said everything there was to say, but here comes Muhannad and I just can't let it pass.

You write: "Yes let's talk about the many ways the Palestinians have been screwed by just about everybody. Except the Norwegians". You can't be serious.

Think about it. What the Norwegians did, and keep doing, is reward a terrorist organization and encourage it to go on. How exactly is this good for Palestinian arabs? It's like bringing Kahana Chay or Tag Mechir to power in Israel. Would that be good for the Israelis?

When I first came to Israel, at the beginning of the 80s, there were no roadblocks, no separation barrier, no "open-air prison" in Gaza. Arabs from West Bank and Gaza worked in Israel, and Israelis were shopping in Gaza or Kalkiliya. I sometimes asked people if they hated arabs, because all the terror attacks. The standard answer was "no, we don't hate them, we just don't trust them". When you don't know who and if is carrying a bomb in a mall or a bus, but you're quite sure it has to be arab, some healthy dose of mistrust is highly recomended. By the way, that racist separation wall "apartheid" Israel built, helped bringing that mistrust down a good way. Because now, when I see arabs in malls or buses, I don't think of them as potential terrorists anymore. I see people who are shopping or working just like I do. Which is very useful, because I often have a ride home from work with arabs :)

Look at Europe, Muhannad. Look at muslim countries like Tunisia (although things might have slightly changed there), Alger, Turkey. Ban on face covering, ban on minaretes, fierce controversy over implementation of Sharia. There is none of this in Israel.

I'll give 2 links, to sites you probably don't know. One is an american jew. From all the (moderate) right-wing pro-Israel bloggers out there, he's one of the best. Here is what he has to say about treatment of Palestinian arabs:

The other site is CIFWatch - "monitoring and exposing antisemitism on the Guardian newspaper's 'Comment is Free' blog".

Sometimes, looking at things from a different perspective helps a lot.

@Iraqi Mojo
"Americans themselves (under Andrew Jackson) forced natives to flee and did not allow them to return, so Israel is only following the leader!". This is what Romans did to jews, forced us to flee and did not allow us to return. Now we're back. What about our right to return?

Iraqi Mojo said...

I'm sure that life for Israelis is much better than in most countries. The Palestinians who were allowed to stay in their homes when Israel was born and in 1967 are lucky.

Why doesn't Israel annex the remainder of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) so that they too enjoy the rights that Israelis have?

Conservatives (especially in America) do a good job of ignoring the continuing injustice against Palestinians. They would rather talk about the injustices against Jews under Roman rule, or how badly Palestinians have been treated in some Arab countries. Meanwhile the Palestinians are still stateless, and Israel continues to annex their land. What will Israel do? Most of them have looked at the demographics and realized that a two state solution is necessary. Others are hoping for another nekba, probably.

Yes let's talk about how badly Muslims treat each other. As if we don't do that enough on my blog. LOL

Iraqi Mojo said...

"Boycott Arab States" because a few of them treated Palestinians badly, worse than Israel has treated them! That's cool, because that discussion adds to the necessity for Palestinian statehood, for self-determination.

My parents know a Palestinian couple in Iraq. They are Christian, from originally from Jerusalem. They fled the 67 war and settled in Iraq, had two sons. My dad saw them in 2005. He said they are doing well, they own a chicken farm outside Baghdad. I hope they are still doing well. But I'm sure they would have preferred to live in Jerusalem than in Baghdad these last few decades.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Robert Fisk: 'Just opposite the Al-Quds restaurant in central Amman is a dull, grey-stone building spattered with old bullet holes. In 1970, this was where the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine staged one of their last stands against King Hussein's loyal Bedouin troops. In the resulting bloodbath, the "Black September" of Palestinian history, the Palestinian "fedayeen" were finally driven from Amman, their "state within a state" shifting from Jordan to Lebanon.

Yet in the restaurant across the road, beneath equally old photographs of a pre-Israel Jerusalem, some very serious men are complaining that Jordan is in danger of becoming Palestine. They moan that 86,000 Palestinians have received Jordanian passports unconstitutionally since 2005, that too many Palestinians are now in the Jordanian government, that corruption and a rigid adherence to American-Israeli policies are laying the groundwork for Israel to expel the West Bank Palestinians across the Jordan River. They have no time for the Jordanian-Israeli peace agreement.'

madtom said...

" so Israel is only following the leader"

Put that way, not just Israel, how about Jews from Iraq, or Cubans in Miami? Do you have the same sympathies for those groups?

Iraqi Mojo said...

I sympathize with all humans who are expelled from their homes. I've discussed Iraqi Jews on my blog before.

Iraqi Jews living in Israel and other parts of the world are doing pretty well, it seems. I met an Iraqi Jew in LA in 2003. He owns an air conditioning service company. Very nice man, and he said his father loved Iraq.

The expulsion of Iraqi Jews from their homes ended long ago. Israel continues to force Palestinians out, in the year 2011.

'For us, the ongoing Occupation is not merely an event arising out of the 1967 war, but a continuation of 1948, conceptually and militarily. That “we have not finished 1948,” a slogan commonly heard in Israel and attributed to Moshe Dayan, refers to the fact that half the population of the Land of Israel is now Palestinian.'

Pisa said...

I followed your link to ICAHD and watched the video until the line "I lived in Silwan".

There are lots of yemeni jews in Israel who can tell you they lived in Silwan, too. That is, until 1948, when they were expelled from their homes by the jordanians.

ICAHD is an NGO opposed to Israel's existence, funded by the EU. It received large sums of money from Spain. It also receives funds from the NDC, which "funded the “Palestinian NGO Code of Conduct” which demands that Palestinian groups reject “any normalization activities with the occupier, neither at the political-security nor the cultural or developmental levels.”":

Unsurprisingly, one of the donors of the NDC is the Islamic Development Bank.

Track the money source to understand the message. This is in no way a message of love and solidarity with palestinian arabs. It's one of hate for Israel. Another twisted leftist outfit whipping up hatred.

More on ICAHD:

I live in Israel for almost 30 years, yet this is my first encounter with that "commonly heard" slogan about the unfinished 1948. Funny that you, in the US, should know about common things in Israel more than I do. If someone mourns the unfinished business of 1948 those are the arab countries, not Israel, as they were the losers.

If NGOs such as ICAHD were really interested to help palestinian arabs, they should have promoted dialogue and understanding between them and israelis. How exactly does telling one part that the other part is doing everything to hurt them promote a normal life?

Those NGOs are the leftist version of Gates and Vienna and Fjordman.

Pisa said...

That should be Gates of Vienna, of course.

Where were those NGOs prior to 1967, when palestinian arabs were occupied by Jordan and Egypt?

madtom said...

"conservative Americans "

You know I am not sure if that was directed at me, or if you were just talking in general terms, but I could not get it out of my head all day. I voted for Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and Clinton in the last primary. I campaigned against Bush, fought tooth an nail against the Bush supporters going way back to Iraq the Model, where someone called me MadLib, and our friends on IBC will back that up as I told them all they were dumb fucks to support Bush's disastrous Iraqi war plans...on and on. Though I am not insulted by names, the conservatives that read you, blog might having me thrown in with their lot...

madtom said...

"ended long ago"

Really, when were they allowed to return? I remember the debate for the new Iraqi constitution explicitly excluding any from returning, not to mention Marsh arab or Kurds..

Iraqi Mojo said...

Thanks madtom for pointing out that you're not conservative, or you don't vote Republican. I think you are referring to this comment I wrote:

"Israelis and conservative Americans have always deflected attention towards the way other Arab countries treat the Palestinians."

I'm generalizing, of course. I'm talking about the traditional American thinking about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Many Democrats are very pro-Israel. C.H. reminded me that Harry Reid and other Democrats are quite pro-Israel. I don't mean to offend you by calling you a conservative:)

Iraqi Mojo said...

"Really, when were they allowed to return?"

I mean the Iraqi Jews have a new homeland, in Israel, Europe, America. They have a country to go to. The Palestinians do not. How about we give them Texas or Florida?

Iraqi Mojo said...

As if there are no conservative Democrats, lol. madtom, do you like Joe Lieberman?

Iraqi Mojo said...

Pisa, is this true?

"July 18th, 2011
A new wave of demolition orders, stop-building orders, property confiscations, settler harassment and multiple warnings of imminent eviction by the Israeli Civil Administration has rendered Bedouin communities in the Jerusalem periphery exhausted of alternative coping strategies. They are now appealing for international protection to resist forced displacement and relocation."

Iraqi Mojo said...

Are Iraqi Jews' homes being demolished in the year 2011?

Iraqi Mojo said...

Any Jews' homes being demolished?

Iraqi Mojo said...

An American Jew co-founded the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions. That is so cool. I love America!

'Jeff Halper (born 1946[1]) is an anthropologist,[2] author, lecturer, political activist, and co-founder and Coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD). In 1997, Halper co-founded ICAHD to challenge and resist the Israeli policy of demolishing Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories, and to organize Israelis, Palestinians and international volunteers to jointly rebuild demolished Palestinian homes. He has created a new mode of Israeli peace activity based on nonviolent direct action and civil disobedience in the Occupied Territories.[1] Halper was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the American Friends Service Committee for his work "to liberate both the Palestinian and the Israeli people from the yoke of structural violence" and "to build equality between their people by recognizing and celebrating their common humanity".'

Iraqi Mojo said...

Pisa, who killed Juliano Mer-Khamis?

'The murder of Israeli actor Juliano Mer-Khamis in Jenin on Monday was most likely a pre-mediated and well-planned assassination, Palestinian former militant Zakarya Zubeidi told Haaretz.

"There is one organization or body, central, big, behind this act," said Zubeidi, who once headed the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade in Jenin and went on to co-manage the Freedom Theater in the West Bank city with Mer-Khamis. "This was not a simple operation. There is a big hand directed." '

Iraqi Mojo said...

Before 1967, a large percentage of the populations of the West Bank and Gaza were already homeless or living in refugee camps - they were refugees from the 1948 war.

Pisa, what would you like to see Israel do with the West Bank? Build more settlements? Build some more Jewish only roads? Is the govt still subsidizing Jewish settlements in the West Bank?

Iraqi Mojo said...

"Where were those NGOs prior to 1967, when palestinian arabs were occupied by Jordan and Egypt?"

I don't think Egypt or Jordan were expelling Palestinians from their homes, or stealing their water, prior to 1967.

Many American Jews became involved after 1967 for a peaceful and just solution to the conflict. Jeff Halper was one of those Jews, evidently.

Pisa said...

Oh, boy. Where should I start?

"I mean the Iraqi Jews have a new homeland, in Israel, Europe, America. They have a country to go to. The Palestinians do not"

How about 22 arab countries?

The jews do not have a homeland in Europe or America. We only have one, in Israel.

March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism… For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

Article 2 in the Draft Palestine Constitution March 25, 2003:
Palestine is part of the Arab nation. The state of Palestine abides by the charter of the League of Arab States. The Palestinian people are part of the Arab and Islamic nations. Arab unity is a goal, the Palestinian people hopes to achieve.

All of the above, from palestinian arabs' leadership.

Syria still sees Palestine and Jordan as the southern part of Greater Syria.

Please don't come with the worn argument that arabs have lived on this land for I don't know how long so they have rights. Iraqi jews have lived there long before there was any Iraq, even long before Islam. 2500 years of continuos jewih presence in Iraq. Are Iraqi jews a distinct people, with rights on Iraqi land? Shouldn't they be given a state of their own in Iraq, with the capital in east Bagdad?

Shouldn't the jews of Europe be given a state of their own in Europe as a legitimate right for 2000 years of continous presence there? Switzerland sounds fine.

Yes, I know the palestinan arabs have suffered after 1948, but much of it is the arab leadership's doing. When your leadership care more about hurting others than helping you, you should start questioning their motives.

Why the hell is Israel expected to help people bent on destroying it? Everything we do is twisted and misinterpreted by the "world community" anyway, so unless we'll have a very big oil reserve and a more attractive market than 22 arab countries, we cannot win the propaganda war.

Pisa said...

Oh joy, ICAHD again.

I cannot confirm, or deny, their report, because it's the first time I heard about it. I could call Jerusalem City Council for details but they are not working as today is 9th of Av, a day of fast and prayers. I asked someone I know to check it out, but it might take time.

There are sometimes troubles with the Bedouins in Neghev, mostly drug and traffic (intentional reckless driving, causing accidents) related crimes. However, bedouins are loyal Israeli citizens, many of them serve in the IDF (including Ismail Haniyeh's sister's son - his sisters being married with bedouins). I find this story very hard to believe. If any of it is true, it must be somewhat different.

Pisa said...

"I don't think Egypt or Jordan were expelling Palestinians from their homes, or stealing their water, prior to 1967."

You'd believe anything bad about Israel, wouldn't you? By the way, the water stealing thingy has been proved false long ago. There are droughts and cronic water shortage in the region. Guess who boycotted the 1991 conference to discuss regional water problems in Turkey? No, not Israel. Syria. Guess again who boycotted the 1992 multilateral talks in Moscow, which included a working group on water issues? Again, not Israel. Syrians, Jordanians, and - gasp - the Palestinians.

I must admit that Jordan has treated palestinian arabs pretty well. They didn't build them Universities or hospitals, malaria thrived, but still...They were certainly not expelling palestinians from their homes, as they were too busy expelling the jews.

As for Gaza, the story is quite different. Egypt had imposed a blockade on Gaza, one that human rights acitvists never noticed. It was under military rule.

There were 300-400 thousand arabs in Israel+West Bank+Gaza in 1948. There are over 5 millions today, with all the expelling, water stealing, white phosphorus and whatnot. Israelis are the only nation in the world who managed to perpetrate a negative genocide! Shouldn't be a Nobel prize for this?

I know for a fact that Israel expelled lots of people from their homes in Gaza. Gush Etzion :(

Pisa said...

Oops. I meant Gush Katif, of course. The jews of Kfar Etzion have been massacred by arabs in 1948. Silly me.

Pisa said...

Look what you've done to me. I'm as angry now as our very unhappy cousin.

You might draw the wrong conclusions from my rants. There is a conflict and it must be solved. That's a fact. However, throwing the whole responsibility on Israel's lap isn't going to solve that problem, no matter what we do. The problem stays unsolvable until the other side is ready to assume some responsabilities as well. Like dropping the "occupation guilty for all" refrain, as the PA now controls most of the West Bank, and Gaza is on its own for years. Like changing the "if only Israel would do this and that" tactics with a "what can WE do to end the conflict" approach. Even a measly "we really want to end the conflict" would do wonders. No chance in hell:

You ask "Build some more Jewish only roads?". You forget that there are "arabs only roads" and "arabs only areas" as well. Try standing in a central square in Ramallah wiht a jewish skullcap on your head. It would be the last thing you'll be doing in your life.

Why doesn't anyone ask why are "muslim only roads" in Saudi Arabia?

Juliano Mer-Khamis. Painful subject. It is well known that he was killed by palestinian arabs. I wouldn't rely on Zakarya Zubeidi to tell me what's going on. I already told you that I don't trust people driven by hate. Like Jeff Halper, who might be genuinely interested in defending palestinian arabs, but is also a liar:

(not that I like people being expelled of their homes, whatever the motives, but you can't build anything on lies).

Lies, half-truths, quotes out of context (or just plain false) - everything is just peaceful political activism when it comes to Israel and jews.

That's enough. Now that your comment section is flooded with pro-zionist rhetoric, I can finally rest.

Pisa said...

Just one more tiny comment.

About the treatment of palestinian arabs by Jordan and Egypt before 1967.

How do you think would those countries have reacted have their citizens been killed in terror attacks perpetrated by palestinian arabs? House demolitions would have been the merciful punishment.

However, there were no terror attacks in Jordan or Egypt. The only terror attacks in the region were in Israel. Why would Jordan or Egypt demolish the houses of or expel anti-Israel "militants"? Duh!

Back to laundry now :(

Iraqi Mojo said...

How Israelis exploited water resources when they occupied Gaza:

"Structural scarcity is thought to be the result of the inequitable distribution of water in Gaza. In 1967 Israel declared all water resources to be state owned and controlled by the military. During this time, Military Order 158 was enacted and prohibited only the Arab population of Gaza from drilling new wells without a permit. Palestinian water consumption was also regulated by strict quotas, the uprooting of thousands of citrus trees, the demolition of cisterns, and the blockage of natural springs and existing wells. These consumption levels have for the most part been maintained to present (Homer-Dixon and Kelly 1995).

Yet, Israelis in Gaza have no restrictions on water consumption. Rather, their consumption is subsidized, encouraging overuse and misuse (Isaac 1997). They have also been favored through selective appropriation of agricultural land having the best groundwater quantity and quality, and uneven pricing schemes. Gaza Palestinians pay up to $1.20/cubic meter while Israeli settlers only pay $0.10/cubic meter for water. Elmusa (1994) states that "relative to per capita income, Palestinians pay as much as twenty times what Israeli settlers pay for water."

Discriminatory Israeli water policies in Gaza can be viewed as an attempt to transfer the brunt of water scarcity to Palestinians while buffering Israelis. As such, Israeli settlements prosper in the midst of a faltering Palestinian economy. This widening gap can only continue to foment substantial conflict between the two communities."

Iraqi Mojo said...

People do talk about the Muslim only roads in KSA. I've seen pics of the signs. There's a whole page on Wikipedia about freedom of religion in KSA:

"Religious freedom is virtually non-existent. The Government does not provide legal recognition or protection for freedom of religion, and it is severely restricted in practice. As a matter of policy, the Government guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious practice; however, this right is not always respected in practice and is not defined in law.[2] Moreover, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited.[1] The Saudi Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) enforces the prohibition on the public practice of non-Muslim religions. Sharia Law applies to all people inside Saudi Arabia, regardless of religion."

Iraqi Mojo said...

So Jeff Halper, Norman Finkelstein, and now Zakarya Zubeidi are all driven by hate. LOL! Was Rachel Corrie driven by hate too? Are all people who want to see justice for Palestinians driven by hate?

"Juliano Mer-Khamis. Painful subject. It is well known that he was killed by palestinian arabs."

What was the murderers' motive?

Muhannad said...

I love Jews who tell the truth.

Adam Horowitz, May 18, 2009: 'Reuters has a good article today on what should have been obvious to Ethan Bronner – it is the Israeli occupation that is running Palestinian Christians out of the West Bank. From the article “Israeli barrier bites into Palestinian village“:

One third of Aboud’s open space has been turned into a buffer zone.
Hundreds of olive trees have been uprooted to make way for a dirt road
closed off with barbed wire and patrolled by the Israeli army. . .

Aboud’s parish priest Father Firas Aridah blames the Israeli barrier
for decimating the income of Aboud’s Christian community and forcing 34
families since 2000 to leave in search of more stability and security.

“The biggest problem is the loss of their land. Their olive trees
have been cut down, and this in turn has cut them off from their source
of livelihood,” said Aridah.

The Fawadleh brothers, George, Francis and Khalil, watched 117 trees
owned by their family for generations being uprooted early last year.
They now have only 26 left and worry those will be destroyed as well.

“It felt like having a stroke,” said George Fawadleh, a Catholic.
“It’s our land. When they uprooted the trees, it was a catastrophe for
us.” '

Muhannad said...

Israeli perceptions of Palestinians are a product of their education:

"Israeli textbooks portray Palestinians as ‘terrorists, refugees, and primitive farmers’ "

Muhannad said...

I know that Palestinian media and other Arab media have portrayed Jews as evil. It is embarrassing.

Pisa said...

You people read the most vile anti-semite sites out there. Mondoweiss?

Yes, Iraqi Mojo, many of the so-called pro-palestinians are in fact driven by hate. 2000 years old christian anti-semitism and 1500 years old muslim anti-semitism don't just disappear overnight. Throw in some socialist ideology which views jews as white european colonialists and you have the perfect recipe for attracting foolish idealists like Rachel Corrie into the battle for a jews-free Middle East.

If I had a dollar for each "jews are blue-eyed white european colonizers" comment I've ever read, I'd be multi-millionaire.

No, I don't think that every pro-palestinian is driven by hate. There are basically 4 categories, I think. Most of them are just rabid anti-semites. Some are bent on saving the world, like Rachel Corrie. There are the die-hard socialists (the "blue-eyed jews" theory, with the "brown people are always right" cherry on top). Last but not least, people like you and Muhannad, who really care - a tiny minority, I suspect.

Juliano Mer-Khamis was a bit of everything, but mostly the caring type. His death has had a huge impact on our society. I cannot speak of him without tears in my eyes. Although he was no friend of Israel, israelis respected him.

The actor himself was aware of the danger. This is what he said in an interview for ynet:

"I have never been as Jewish as I am right now in Jenin. After all this work at the camp it would be extremely unfortunate to die of a Palestinian bullet,"

From the same article:

"Residents of the refugee camp disseminated fliers in 2009 calling the actor a fifth column. "If words don't help we will have to speak in bullets," the fliers said.

The theater, which became one of the city's main culture centers since its establishment five years ago, has sustained many firebomb attacks. In April of 2009 the theater's door was torched".,7340,L-4052070,00.html

Why would Israel kill Mer-Khamis?

I have to work tomorrow. I'm on holiday, but someone from work asked me for a favor so I don't have the whole night. I'll be back with more dreadful hasbara first thing in the morning (I'm taking the laptop with me).

Muhannad said...

Mondoweiss is antisemitic? LOL

Muhannad said...

Rachel Corrie wanted a Jew-free middle east, did she??

Pisa, you are a hasbara pro.

madtom said...

"Iraqi Jews have a new homeland, in Israel, Europe, America. "

Exactly the point we were making. There are no UN run Iraqi Jew refugee camps in any of those places. If there were they would look just like the ones in Lebanon, and all people that have immigrated to the US have been given he chance to naturalize, and any children born to those people here in the US are automatically native born US citizens which can grow up to be president. If that were the case in the ME there would not be the problems we see today. And of course if the PA was a real and independent player they could have had a state years ago, but they are just proxies to the same powers that keep people in refugee camps..

Iraqi Mojo said...

The Palestinians don't have a state because the Israelis have always wanted a part of the West Bank. I wouldn't give an inch either. Israel already took by force 78% of Palestine. Why should the Palestinians compromise further? It would not be right, in my opinion.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Iraqi Jews cannot return to Iraq per the Iraqi constitution? Where did you read that, madtom? I'd like to know more. That would be ridiculous.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Not that Iraqi leaders abide by the constitution.

"Late Saturday night Iraqi newswires began spreading the news: Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki had sacked the electricity minister, Raad Shalal al-Ani, because of allegations of questionable deals with foreign companies and corruption. Most media commentators reported the act as a fait accompli and began discussing possible successors to replace Ani.

But hold your horses for a moment: Can Maliki really do that? Sack a minister without consulting with anyone else? No, he can’t. Not without the consent of the parliament, as detailed in article 78 of the Iraqi constitution."

madtom said...

"Are Iraqi Jews' homes being demolished in the year 2011?"

Would that not first require that jews still lived in Iraq? Plenty of Christians being bombed lately.

And I do remember seeing some Jews in Israel being dragged away from their illegal settlements in the news.

Iraqi Mojo said...

Poor settlers! lol

Iraqi Mojo said...

'Mer Khamis appeared in a number of Israeli films after his first film role in the 1984 production of the John Le Carre novel The Little Drummer Girl, about Mossad's hunt for a PLO bomber.

He was born to a Jewish mother and an Arab Christian father. His mother, Arna, was renowned for setting up a theatre group in Jenin during the first Intifada which started in 1987. Mer Khamis directed the film Arna's Children, which celebrated her work, which he continued after her death in 1994. His wife, Jenny, a Finn, is pregnant with twins. She heard of his death from Israeli radio.

...While his work was widely appreciated by Palestinians, his bringing together of young men and women angered conservative Muslim elements in Jenin. In addition to threats, fire bombs were thrown at the theatre. However the project was supported by local militants. Zakaria Zubeidi, a leader of the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, frequented the theatre as a child.

Kadura Musa, governor of Jenin, said: "He was a Palestinian citizen of Israeli origin. An actor and an artist but most of all a true human being. We don't know why this happened, but all the people of the camp condemn the death of this son of ours whose mother also did so much for the people of Jenin."

Alaa Eddin Saadi lives next to the theatre, and said that Mer Khamis was shot while in a car also carrying his one-year old son and his nanny, who was wounded in the hand. "I don't think he was killed because he was Jewish. Some people were angry with the liberal values he was promoting at the theatre, but to me he was a very nice guy who worked hard for the people here." '

Iraqi Mojo said...

What a loss, especially for Palestinians. It's always the conservative elements that ruin it for everybody.

Iraqi Mojo said...

I saw that movie, The Little Drummer Girl. Great movie.

Iraqi Mojo said...

"Based on the testimony of an eyewitness, Palestinian police charged Mujahed Qaniri, from Jenin's refugee camp, with having carried out the murder. There are varying accounts of Qamiri's affiliation, some describe him as a former member of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades who defected to Hamas, but a Hamas spokesman has denied any involvement, describing this as a purely criminal incident."

Iraqi Mojo said...

A guy named Mujahed, from the refugee camp. The poor embrace Islam and believe that secularism must be punished. It's sad.

It's hard to believe there are still refugee camps 60 years after hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled their homes and were not allowed to return. But we're not supposed to think about them. And if we do, we must also talk about the Iraqi Jews who were expelled from their homes! It's friggin ridiculous.

Iraqi Mojo said...

As if conservatives really care about Iraqi Jews. Check out what this Iraqi Jew has to say:

'The Link interviewed Naeim Giladi, a Jew from Iraq, for three hours on March 16, 1998, two days prior to his 69th birthday. For nearly two other delightful hours, we were treated to a multi-course Arabic meal prepared by his wife Rachael, who is also Iraqi. "It's our Arab culture," he said proudly.

In our previous Link, Israeli historian Ilan Pappe looked at the hundreds of thousands of indigenous Palestinians whose lives were uprooted to make room for foreigners who would come to populate confiscated land. Most were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe. But over half a million other Jews came from Islamic lands. Zionist propagandists claim that Israel "rescued" these Jews from their anti-Jewish, Muslim neighbors. One of those "rescued" Jews-Naeim Giladi-knows otherwise.

In his book, Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor. Newly-vacated farmlands had to be plowed to provide food for the immigrants and the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands. Mr. Giladi couldn't get his book published in Israel, and even in the U.S. he discovered he could do so only if he used his own money.

The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. "I am Iraqi," he told us, "born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American." '

madtom said...

"The remainder of Iraq's Jews left over the next few decades, and had mostly gone by 1970. By 2004, fewer than 100 Jews remained in the country, and debate over the Iraqi constitution has included whether Jews should be considered a minority group, or left out of the constitution altogether.[24"

You see, wikis memory is just like mine, there was debate during the time that they wrote the new constitution, and at the end they did not allow the return on the jews, or put off the decision till later like the question of the borders of the Kurds...I think the two might have been linked in some way, and if memory serves me right some Kurds said they would allow jews to return to Kurdistan, at some point, or like the oil deals they said things that the central government later rejected.

madtom said...

So the guy from the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade that was blaming the "invisible hand" for the actors murder was from the group that killed the actor for his views, go figure.
Do you see why we don't believe these people?

Iraqi Mojo said...

So based on that Wiki article, the Iraqi constitution says that Iraqi Jews are not allowed to return? That's what you took away from that? What are you, a conservative?? lol

Iraqi Mojo said...

Who are "these people" madtom?

madtom said...

Can't you see why we don't trust these people either? We liberals, people with very liberal social views would be the first people on their target list. Most of the fools in the US that "support Palestine" would be the first to die at their hands should they come to power...

madtom said...

Based on my memory of the debate around the constitution. If I remember correctly they were not allowed to return, and or not included as an Iraqi minority with the rights of the constitution supposedly gives to the Iraq minorities. Could be wrong.

madtom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Iraqi Mojo said...

Do you think all Palestinians are conservative Muslims? Do all conservative Muslims support the murder of secular people? Do the conservative Muslims not deserve to have self-determination?

Do you think liberals believe it would help the relationship between the west and all conservative Muslims if America supports a fair and just resolution to the conflict? I think liberals believe all the Palestinians, conservative or not, deserve justice. We should help them out of the refugee camps, even if they are conservative Muslims.

Zakaria Zubeidi was a leader of the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, yet he helped found the theater with Juliano Mer-Khamis.

Iraqi Mojo said...

'"those people" can include all the democracy hating people of the world'

Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade hates democracy?

madtom said...

"those people" can include all the democracy hating people of the world, but we can limit it to just those in the ME for the purpose of this conversation

madtom said...

"Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade"

Do you think they are "Republican in Nature"?

Iraqi Mojo said...

I don't know what their views are on democracy and what democracy means to them. I was surprised to learn that one of their leaders liked Juliano Mer-Khamis.

madtom said...

It would be hard to make blanket statement about Palestinians, but I don't think it's secret at Muslim culture is not very democratic, that it lacks a "reformation". It would be like asking if Catholics are democratic. One things for sure, they are more democratic here in the US than any other place in the world. And of course we are not touching on the subject of the brain damage cased by living inside a repressive regime...That is a longer debate and has nothing to do with religion per say but can be very much associated with religion.

madtom said...

"I was surprised to learn that one of their leaders liked Juliano Mer-Khamis"

Not surprising, could have been just for the propaganda value and typical useful idiot that brings you money and connections. It's not hard for me to believe that he kept him alive as long as he was useful and killed him as soon as that was more useful

Iraqi Mojo said...

It's that kind of comment in which you jump to conclusions that makes me think you are a conservative, madtom. It's obvious Zakaria Zubeidi was a friend of Juliano's, like many Palestinians were.

"His Freedom Theatre, set up in 2006 to replace his mother’s workshop (bulldozed by the Israelis four years earlier), was the first acting school in occupied Palestine. It drew audiences from Ramallah, Bethlehem and even Israel, bused in semi-secretly through the mountains. By 2009 700-800 children attended every year, including many girls. There was a waiting list. They acted “Alice in Wonderland” and a Palestinian version of “Animal Farm” in which the children, in their pig masks, learned to speak Hebrew and dared to suggest that fighters in their own intifada might become like their oppressors. In the battered cement labyrinths of the camp, where the only entertainment came from TV or mobile phones, the theatre was Mr Mer-Khamis’s seeding ground for a brand new and liberated Palestinian identity."

Zakaria is probably still mourning his brilliant friend and business partner, who was evidently making things better for Palestinians.

madtom said...

"conservative Muslims"

Do you think there is a real difference between conservatives, moderates, and liberals?

All we see are shades of green, the main difference is the conservatives would put a knife to your neck right away, and the other ones might give you three steps towards the door.

If there were real differences there would be civil war all across the Muslim world.

madtom said...

" It drew audiences from Ramallah, Bethlehem and even Israel,"

You see, just like I said, money and connections. And where did that money go? Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade?
How many suicide vest do you think it paid?

Iraqi Mojo said...

There have been civil wars all across the Muslim world, madtom.

Iraqi Mojo said...

So Juliano Mer-Kahn's theater was funding terrorism? madtom, you are not getting it. lol

But if your theory is that fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with a democracy in which non-Muslims live, I would probably agree with you.

madtom said...

"There have been civil wars"

But most of those have been about food shortage, mostly brought about by socialist government, very little to do with supposed conservative/liberal divide.

The liberals in the Egyptian rallies were raping female journalist while the crowd cheered on the whore getting what she deserved

Iraqi Mojo said...

"The liberals in the Egyptian rallies were raping female journalist while the crowd cheered on the whore getting what she deserved"

Sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would say. Or Glen Beck.

Iraqi Mojo said...

The war between liberal Muslims and conservative Muslims has been ongoing for decades.

madtom said...

"So Juliano Mer-Kahn's theater was funding terrorism?"

You just said that a high ranking member of the brigade was a partner in the theater, what do you think the brigade does with it's money? Or maybe the Brigade was subsidizing the

madtom said...

"Or Glen Beck"

Try the lady herself, it was in her interview, I read it.

madtom said...

"has been ongoing for decades."

That all looks like propaganda from here. Shades of green. mostly to support the regimes and royal families and the elites. Nothing more, nothing real. If it were real schools, universities and Mosques and Ayatollahs would have burned.

I am open to being educated, I want to learn more, it's why I come to sites like yours, to learn from those that close to the truth. Teach me.

Iraqi Mojo said...

I wrote "Zakaria Zubeidi was a leader of the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade"

WAS a leader, madtom.

"He co-founded his theatre with Zacharia Zubeidi, once the military head of the al-Aqsa Brigades, whom he had inspired to turn away from violence."

Iraqi Mojo said...

In Iran the people are divided between Islamic fundamentalist and relatively liberal. Hundreds have died since 2009. For decades liberal Iranians have been imprisoned or killed for their views.

In Pakistan, liberal politicians have been assassinated by conservatives. Benazir Bhutto was a liberal politician. The people who killed her were conservative.

In Algeria, liberals have been attacked for decades. The Algerian Civil War was largely between secular and fundamentalist.

Among the Palestinians, there are liberal forces (Fatah, PLO) who have fought conservatives (Hamas).

In Iraq in the 60s, liberal politicians and military leaders took over. The Baathists, who were more conservative, overthrew the communist liberals.

Since the 70s there has been a general shift towards conservatism in the Arab and Muslim world, but liberalism is not dead. In Iraq today, there is Al Iraqiya, a secular party, more liberal than Maliki's group. There are many liberal Iraqis who would like to see an end to political Islam. Liberals in Iraq have to stay low to avoid being killed by militant conservatives.

Tensions between liberals and conservatives exist in just about every Muslim country.

Pisa said...

Muhannad, you raise several issues which I would like to address.

"I love Jews who tell the truth".

This is a very racist statement. It implies that you hate jews who don't tell the kind of things you wanna hear.

Who gets to determine the truth? How do you know that what you read on Mondoweiss is true, since you have nothing to compare it with? Some of it might be, some of it surely isn't. And yes, they are very anti-semitic. I've enough experience with anti-semitism to be able to tell.

Re palestinian christians. This is one story unconfirmed by other sources (except for Wikipedia, which mentions 30-40 trees uprooted, not hundreds). The article in the Washington Post is no longer there, so I can't tell you if this is true or not. Even if it is, it's still a local event that doSen't justify blaming the flight of palestinian christians on Israel.

By the way, this flight began in the 19th century, long before the evil-zionists-lives-saving barrier.

If I'm accused of spreading hasbara, at least I'll do it properly. They would still be alive today if it was a barrier back then.

Re education. My kid being in school, I'll try to ask him about this. I'm not sure he'll cooperate, since the subject isn't exactly what a teenager is interested in.

I have to emphasize a small aspect that had evaded the scrutiny of both Peled-Elhanan and Mr Barghouti. Arabs themselves and their deeds are likely to have a greater impact on our views than textbooks.

When ny kid was 5-6 years old, long before being subjected to the Likud-sponsored brainwashing, I took him to the mall. A risky business back then, before the christian-cleansing barrier. We sat down to eat at Burger Ranch. A family of arabs arrived and sat at a table next to us. My kid asked me to move to another table because he was afraid to sit so close to arabs. Truth to tell, I was undecided myself, since back then some arabs had the bad habit of suddenly blowing up with no regard for other people's body parts. Between fear of death and fear of nurturing a little racist, I had a long look at that family and decided they just came to enjoy junk-food as everyone else, so we didn't move. I still have second-thoughts accompanied by "what if" flashes about this. What's preferable - a dead innocent child or a live racist one?

Re Rachel Corrie. I never said she wanted a jews-free Middle East. Frankly, I don't know. I talked about people who wouldn't risk their own behinds but are sending young idealistic fools to further their agenda. Rachel Corrie, as far as I know, was such an idealistic fool.

Try some pro-Israel sites for balance. There is CAMERA - Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. There is also the Index of Myths. Maybe this, too.

The truth is usually caught somewhere in the middle.

Muhannad said...

"This is a very racist statement. It implies that you hate jews who don't tell the kind of things you wanna hear."

LOL! Yes I hate hearing lies. I don't wanna hear any lies, whether from Jews, Christians, or Muslims.

I love all people who tell the truth. I love Jews who insist on telling the truth about Israel. It is respectable. I wish more Muslims would criticize Muslim fundamentalists like Christians and Jews criticize their respective fundies.

Muhannad said...

"And yes, they are very anti-semitic."

There are many anti-Semitic Jews out there, huh?

Is Ralph Schoenman also anti-Semitic because he wrote the truth?

"The seizure of Palestinian property was indispensable to make Israel a viable state. Between 1948 and 1953, 370 Jewish towns and settlements were established. Three hundred fifty were on "absentee" property. By 1954, some 35% of Israel’s Jews lived on property confiscated from absentees and some 250,000 new immigrants settled in urban areas from which Palestinians had been expelled. Entire cities had been emptied of Palestinians, such as Jaffa, Acre, Lydda, Ramle, Bisan and Majdal (Ashqelon)."

AGA said...

"The main reason I keep coming back to your blog is that you always question everything. I mean, with such sources, I would expect a dialogue between us to be almost impossible. However, you keep an open mind, unlike those mentioned above. There is still hope for you ;)"

Amen, ditto, and LOL @ Pisa.

Pisa said...

Muhannad, with all due respect, you just proved my point.

I work with arabs. From Jaffa, Lod (your Lydda, I guess) and Tira, mostly. Teachers, assistants, drivers, kids. Acre had been the theater of clashes between jewish and arab residents couple of years ago, over arab drivers endangering the children on the streets by recklessly driving on Yom Kippur. Honor killings are the plague of Lod, and it's not a jewish custom. I know that Ralph Schoenman is lying.

You don't love jews who tell the truth. You love jews who tell you what you expect to hear. That's racist.

Please understand that this is in no way an ad-hominem attack. I'm just trying to show you why you shouldn't believe everything bad you read about Israel.

Some jews care enough about their jewish brethren to point out the wrongdoings in the hope that solutions will be found. I think that Lisa Goldman is in this category.

Others, however, are eager to tell any lies to make their fellow jews look bad. Like Finkelstein, Chomsky, Jeremy Ben-Ami. The "asajew"s, who got this nickname because they start their vitriolic rants with what in their eyes should be the authenticity stamp -"I, as a jew".

There are a number of theories as to why those jews are doing everything they can to demonize their own people. They have something in common - leftist ideology. To me they look like suicide bombers. They attack jewish identity itself, loosing theirs in the process. Their version of the 72 virgins is the love they receive from people like you Muhannad, the brown therefore oppressed. For the black (like in Somalia) they don't care much, since their misery cannot be blamed on jews. Their "asajew"s credentials only go that far.

To answer your question:
"There are many anti-Semitic Jews out there, huh?"

Of course there are. Leftist ideology is anti-semitic at its core. Jewishness itself is a threat, as judaism survived every horror thrown at it, therefore threatening to overcome ideology by dint of its incredible strength. Dissention must be ruthlessly crushed, by all means. The left is dictatorial.

Muhannad said...

So Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Ralph Schoenman, Jeff Halper, and even Jeremy Ben-Ami, who was President Bill Clinton’s Deputy Domestic Policy Adviser, are all liars? LOL

Muhannad said...

And they're anti-semitic! And I'm racist!


I have great respect for Jews. In my post Arabs and Muslims Need Education, noted are the many educated and influential Jews in the history of the modern world:

Movers of Recent History

o Albert Einstein, Jewish

o Sigmund Freud, Jewish

o Karl Marx, Jewish

o Paul Samuelson, Jewish

o Milton Friedman, Jewish

Medical Milestones

o Vaccinating Needle, Benjamin Ruben, Jewish

o Polio Vaccine, Jonas Salk, Jewish

o Leukemia Drug, Gertrude Elion, Jewish

o Hepatitis B, Baruch Blumberg, Jewish

o Syphilis Drug, Paul Ehrlich, Jewish

o Neuro muscular, Elie Metchnikoff, Jewish

o Endocrinology, Andrew Schally, Jewish

o Cognitive therapy, Aaron Beck, Jewish

o Contraceptive Pill, Gregory Pincus, Jewish

o Understanding of Human Eye, G. Wald, Jewish

o Embryology, Stanley Cohen, Jewish

o Kidney Dialysis, Willem Kloffcame, Jewish

Nobel Prize Winners

o In the past 105 years, 14 million Jews have won 180 Nobel prizes whilst 1.5 billion Muslims have contributed only 3 Nobel winners

Inventions that changed History

o Micro- Processing Chip, Stanley Mezor, Jewish

o Nuclear Chain Reactor, Leo Sziland, Jewish

o Optical Fibre Cable, Peter Schultz, Jewish

o Traffic Lights, Charles Adler, Jewish

o Stainless Steel, Benno Strauss, Jewish

o Sound Movies, Isador Kisee, Jewish

o Telephone Microphone, Emile Berliner, Jewish

o Video Tape Recorder, Charles Ginsburg, Jewish

Influential Global Business

o Polo, Ralph Lauren, Jewish

o Levi's Jeans, Levi Strauss, Jewish

o Starbuck's Howard Schultz, Jewish

o Google, Sergey Brin, Jewish

o Dell Computers, Michael Dell, Jewish

o Oracle, Larry Ellison, Jewish

o DKNY, Donna Karan, Jewish

o Baskin & Robbins, Irv Robbins, Jewish

o Dunkin Donuts, Bill Rosenberg, Jewish

Influential Intellectuals/Politicians

o Henry Kissinger, US Sec of State, Jewish

o Richard Levin, Pres. Yale University, Jewish

o Alan Greenspan, US Federal Reserve, Jewish

o Joseph Lieberman, Jewish

o Madeleine Albright, US Sec of State, Jewish

o Casper Weinberger, US Sec of Defense, Jewish

o Maxim Litvinov, USSR Foreign Minister, Jewish

o David Marshal, Singapore Chief Minister, Jewish

o Isaacs Isaacs, Gov-Gen Australia, Jewish

o Benjamin Disraeli, British Statesman, Jewish

o Yevgeny Primakov, Russian PM, Jewish

o Barry Goldwater, US Politician, Jewish

o Jorge Sampaio, President Portugal, Jewish

o Herb Gray, Canadian Dep-PM, Jewish

o Pierre Mendes, French PM, Jewish

o Michael Howard, British Home Sec, Jewish

o Bruno Kriesky, Austrian Chancellor, Jewish

o Robert Rubin, US Sec of Treasury, Jewish

Global Media Influentials

o Wolf Blitzer, CNN, Jewish

o Barbara Walters, ABC News, Jewish

o Eugene Meyer, Washington Post, Jewish

o Henry Grunwald, Time Magazine, Jewish

o Katherine Graham, Washington Post, Jewish

o Joseph Lelyyeld, New York Times, Jewish

o Max Frankel, New York Times, Jewish

Global Philanthropists

o George Soros, Jewish

o Waltewr Annenberg, Jewish

Muhannad said...

For those who don't know Chomsky:

'Avram Noam Chomsky ( /ˈnoʊm ˈtʃɒmski/; born December 7, 1928) is an American linguist, computer scientist, philosopher,[2][3] cognitive scientist, and activist. He is an Institute Professor and Professor (Emeritus) of in the Department of Linguistics & Philosophy at MIT.[4] Chomsky is widely described as the "father of modern linguistics"[5][6][7] and a major figure of analytic philosophy.[2] His work has influenced fields such as computer science, mathematics, and psychology.[8][9]'

The man is a legend in academia.

Muhannad said...

For those who don't know Norman Finkelstein:

'Norman Gary Finkelstein (born December 8, 1953) is an American political scientist, and author. His primary fields of research are the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the politics of the Holocaust. He is a graduate of Binghamton University and received his Ph.D in Political Science from Princeton University. He has held faculty positions at Brooklyn College, Rutgers University, Hunter College, New York University, and, most recently, DePaul University, where he was an assistant professor from 2001 to 2007.'

Muhannad said...

For those who don't know Jeff Halper:

'Jeff Halper (born 1946[1]) is an anthropologist,[2] author, lecturer, political activist, and co-founder and Coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD). In 1997, Halper co-founded ICAHD to challenge and resist the Israeli policy of demolishing Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories, and to organize Israelis, Palestinians and international volunteers to jointly rebuild demolished Palestinian homes. He has created a new mode of Israeli peace activity based on nonviolent direct action and civil disobedience in the Occupied Territories.[1] Halper was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the American Friends Service Committee for his work "to liberate both the Palestinian and the Israeli people from the yoke of structural violence" and "to build equality between their people by recognizing and celebrating their common humanity".
Halper has written several books on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is a frequent writer and speaker about Israeli politics, focusing mainly on nonviolent strategies to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.'

Muhannad said...

For those who don't know Ralph Schoenman:

"Ralph Schoenman (born 1935) is an American left-wing activist who was a personal secretary to Bertrand Russell and became general secretary of the Bertrand Russell Peace Foundation. He was involved in a number of projects supported by Russell, including the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND), the Committee of 100 and an unofficial war crimes tribunal to try American leaders for their conduct in the Vietnam War. Shortly before his own death in 1970, Russell publicly broke with Schoenman."

madtom said...

I'd like to post a what if question to the group.

What if back in 48 instead of the modern state of Israel, there would have been installed a new Jewish king of Israel, A royal family of the House of David as absolute ruler, rebuilt a new temple and named a new high priest and established religious state akin to KSA, Jordan or Morocco.

My question is would the Arab states have gone to war, would the Arab states have all refused the partition, or would they have accepted the new Jewish Kingdom?

Muhannad said...

Probably would have refused the partition.

It depends on how many Palestinians would have been expelled from their homes, maybe.

'The 1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya), also known as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah, lit. "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"),[1] occurred when approximately 711,000 to 725,000 Palestinian Arabs left, fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Civil War that preceded it.[2] The exact number of refugees is a matter of dispute.[3] The causes remain the subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis.'

Pisa said...

Madtom, I don't think a jewish kingdom would appeal to arabs more than a jewish democratic state. They might have thought twice about the consequences of attacking an uncompromising dictatorship, but I don't think it would have hold them back for long. The key here is the "jewish" thingy.

Muhannad, our choices make us who we are. During the short period of flirting with right-wing anti muslim blogs like Gates of Vienna, I was myself racist and I was perfectly aware of that fact. It was my choice. I felt like the whole muslim world was my enemy, as you feel now that Israel itself is yours. I eagerly searched the net for every bit of information about atrocities committed by muslims, to reinforce my own prejudices. It went both against my education and my nature (I'm an incredibly tolerant person). What that short dark period has taught me is never trust anyone who sees the other side as utterly and inherently evil. Or utterly and inherently good, for that matter.

We all have our prejudices. Relying only on those facts and ideas that reinforce prejudices we already have is racist. Believing only those narratives shoved down our throats which match prejudices we already have is racist.

I didn't say you were anti-semitic. You're prejudiced against Israel, not against jews.

All those jewish activists you love suffer from collective blindness when it comes to their darling "browns" (as long as they're not yemeni or ethiopian jews, of course - those are still blue-eyed european colonizers). Everything is Israel's fault, and if there are not enough facts to incriminate the zionists they manage to fabricate some. Like the hunger that wasn't in Gaza. Like the massacre that wasn't in Jenin. Like the photo of a poor palestinian beaten by Israeli security forces on the Temple Mount, when it was in fact a jewish-american student beaten by arabs whom security forces where helping to get up (that one is old but famous - the boy's mother saw this photo in the newspaper and recongnized her own son presented as a palestinian arab!). Should I mention the Al-Dura hoax, debunked by Karsenty?

I'm a jew who tells the truth, yet you don't love me. This sucks.

madtom said...

"The key here is the "jewish" thingy."

That had been around for a long time before 48.