What forum are they supposed to use? Isn't the UN the forum the Zionists used to establish their state?
"Obama Says Palestinians Are Using Wrong Forum"
"President Obama declared his opposition to the Palestinian Authority’s bid for statehood through the Security Council on Wednesday, throwing the weight of the United States directly in the path of the Arab democracy movement even as he hailed what he called the democratic aspirations that have taken hold throughout the Middle East and North Africa."
32 comments :
"What forum are they supposed to use?"
Go back to negotiate with Israel directly and with good faith.
But they have tried negotiating with Israel before, and the only thing it got them was an offer to allow a Palestinian state that looks like an archipelago.
This morning Fareed Zakaria wrote on facebook:
"I am opposed to the Palestinian effort at the United Nations because I think that it is going to get them nowhere.
I’m convinced of the cause; I would like to see a Palestinian state and I would like to see it broadly speaking on the boundaries that the Clinton plan talked about.
But this is not the time for romantic gestures. This is the time for them to do something that will actually help them get a Palestinian state - a goal that I support."
Most of the comments for his post were critical. The first comment: "Why continue to call for talks after 60 years of talks?"
The second comment that received lots of likes: "I'm sorry, but it is entirely impractical to think that the so-called "Peace Process" or negotiations are going to be productive. This is an issue that so many have sought to resolve for decades, and to date the following remains true. 1) The Palestinians are force to live under the oppression of Israel, and 2) The Israelis continue to push further and further into Palestinian territory. You can't continue to fall back on a failed process and expect it to work. Now is the time for a gesture that forces the hand of Israel and the West."
The third comment that received many likes: " Israel seems content with the status quo so what other leverage do the Palestinians have??! I respect you Fareed, but you're wrong."
Those comments were left by westerners, probably Americans.
A guy named Klaus Schwartz left this comment: "You may be right. However, I think it is obvious that the negotiation process over the last few decades did not work. It failed. Therefore, why not try a different approach via the United Nations?"
A woman named Jackie left this comment:
"Excuse me if I don't get this, but it seems a bit like asking an abused spouse to put up and do more so that the other spouse stops the abuse.
So, perhaps as many as one half of the Palestinian people don't think that Israel as a State should exist (not sure if that number is accurate, just don't know); perhaps as many as one half of the Israeli people don't think that Palestine as a State should exist (not sure if that number is accurate either, just don't know).
What I do know is that large numbers of people from Israel and people from Palestine BOTH support Statehood, as do most people and government leaders of the world. RIGHT is right, and should be pursued. Hope that the United Nations General Assembly does the right thing, and pray that members of the Security Counsel do the right thing. Controlling other people's destiny is not political justice for anyone. peace, Jackie"
"But they have tried negotiating with Israel before, and the only thing it got them was an offer to allow a Palestinian state that looks like an archipelago."
The map is meaningless, there are jews living there and some of them will be living under the P state as citizens or residents .
Just as there is an Arab minority in Israel.
The sky will not fall on their heads.
madtom, are you in favor of a one state solution?
idit, does the map of Israel also look like an archipelago? Palestinian state or no state, there are big problems that most "conservatives" have been ignoring for a long time. Here is an example dated 2008:
'To travel through the West Bank and Gaza these days feels like traveling through Israeli colonies.
You whiz around the West Bank on new highways that in some cases are reserved for Israeli vehicles, catching glimpses of Palestinian vehicles lined up at checkpoints.
The security system that Israel is steadily establishing is nowhere more stifling than here in Hebron, the largest city in the southern part of the West Bank. In the heart of a city with 160,000 Palestinians, Israel maintains a Jewish settlement with 800 people. To protect them, the Israeli military has established a massive system of guard posts, checkpoints and road closures since 2001.
More than 1,800 Palestinian shops have closed and several thousand people have been driven from their homes. The once flourishing gold market is now blocked with barbed wire and choked with weeds.
"For years, Israel has severely oppressed Palestinians living in the center of the city," notes B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights group, in a recent report. The authorities, it adds, "have expropriated the city center from its Palestinian residents and destroyed it economically."
Rima Abu Aisha, a housewife in Hebron, has the misfortune of living in an area near the settlers. When she went into labor, an ambulance could not get the appropriate permissions in time and the baby died, she said.'
The fact is, Israel doesn't have the right to exist, period. If you go back to not only 1930, but 1830 and 1730, there was no Israel.
Mojo
Have you ever been to Israel/west bank?
Mojo,
Any thoughts on Erdogan and his growing "hero" status by the pro-Palestinian crowd?
idit, I have never been to Israel/Palestine.
Should I disbelieve what I read in the New York Times?
C.H., who is Erdogan?
The prime minister of Turkey. Look him up on Google news.
"Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan Thursday blamed the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for the impasse in Middle East peace talks and called for international pressure on the Jewish state."
Sounds about right. The conservatives in Israeli government, especially Likud, have always been responsible for the impasse. They seem happy with the apartheid-like situation. The Likud charter states clearly that they consider the West Bank, which they call "Judea and Sameria", to be part of Israel.
But politics is not affecting trade relations between Turkey and Israel:
"Trade has risen 30 percent since January and sales of Turkish-made cars such as Ford Motor Co.’s Connect vans and Renault SA (RNO)’s Clio doubled in Israel last year. Flowing in the opposite direction, refined fuels and industrial machinery powered a 40 percent jump in Israel exports to Turkey last year."
You don't see any hypocrisy over the treatment of the Kurds, his refusal to recognize the Armenian Genocide (as well as threats against what remains today of Armenians in Turkey) and the occupation of Cyprus?
If this guy and his government have the right to take the moral high ground at the UN over Israel/Gaza, then Netanyahu should get a chance to go up onstage and demand justice for Kurdistan...along with a comprehensive plan to put pressure on Turkey over its bombing raids into Iraq.
It astonishes me that no one is saying these things to Erdogan's face while he tries to play a hero.
Justice for Kurdistan, yes that sounds great! But I am sure you know that Iraqi Kurds can vote in Iraqi elections and Iraqi Kurds are now empowered in the Iraqi government. The president of Iraq is Kurdish.
Can Palestinians who live in the West Bank vote in Israeli elections?
Even in Turkey the Kurds can vote in Turkish elections.
"The new Turkish parliament has more women, more Kurds and more human rights activists than ever before. Voter turnout was a record 87%."
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2077298,00.html#ixzz1YnkK0IhN
"Who's to blame for the continued failure of the Middle East peace process? Former President Bill Clinton said today that it is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu -whose government moved the goalposts upon taking power, and whose rise represents a key reason there has been no Israeli-Palestinian peace deal."
Yes, Palestinians in the West Bank should be able to have full voting rights. Arabs in every country should have the right to vote, though most of them do not...including in Hamas-run Gaza. There have been some elections or attempts at elections in the West Bank, although most of them have been flawed or postponed.
In Turkey, Kurds may be voting but they are hardly able to speak their own language...which doesn't give a very healthy indication of "democracy" in that region. Until recently, it was banned altogether, essentially denying them their right to who they are. Mosques, most schools, and areas of public life remain prevented from using it. Arabic, on the other hand, is a national language in Israel.
http://www.eurasianet.org/node/63639
More people have died in clashes between Kurds and Turkish soldiers this year (and most of the years before) than in Israel/Gaza. Erdogan has been eager to continue these military strikes in Iraq, while working in conjunction with Iran (a country he has had little criticism for).
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=rights-key-to-solving-kurdish-issue-report-2011-09-20
Turkey has a tendency to jail its activists and elected Kurdish leaders who ask for real rights
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7765734.stm
If this had been an Israel-Arab MK, Erdogan would have almost certainly mentioned it at the UN.
"But I am sure you know that Iraqi Kurds can vote in Iraqi elections and Iraqi Kurds are now empowered in the Iraqi government."
That's great for Iraq...Iraq is very different from Turkey. Its a tragedy that Turkey and Iran are threatening Iraqi Kurdistan's new-found prosperity through bombings, threats, and invasions.
"a one state solution?"
Any state solution will do as long as it is not a terrorist regime. You would think that someone that had to leave just such a place would want to make a new one. Why is that Mojo, did your daddy abuse you, do you have that syndrome where you want to to to others as was done to you. Why would you give these people the legitimacy to kill with sovereignty
" If you go back to not only 1930, but 1830 and 1730,"
There was not lots of other place either, so what.
Canada's NW territory, I think 1999.
Free the Inuit
But then again are we really to believe that first human thing?
I mean, if Hitler had destroyed Israel in 1942, in that case it woulda made sense for the International Community to put Israel back after WW2.
However, to just suddenly put it there, even though it hadn't existed for thousands of years (and maybe never), is strange. It is like putting back the Inca Empire.
So I think the sudden establishment of Israel in 1948 is uncalled for.
And now instead of getting back at the Germans, the jews find themselves venting their anger from the Holocaust by harassing the Palestinians, who are not German.
"So I think the sudden establishment of ... 1948 "
You mean like Pakistan, right. That should go back to India. Them crazy Brits.
The PKK I could almost give you that one. But first we try little equality and see how that goes.
The Palestinians were not offered an archiplego, Mojo. This is propaganda put forward by the Palestinians and their supporters to hide the real reason for their rejection of the Camp David and Taba offer - their insistence on a right to return to Israel for Palestinian exiles. You can see the maps offered in the link below. Note that both the dark and light grey areas would have been under Palestinian sovereignty.
http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm
I'm still waiting for C.H to criticize isra-hell the way he criticizes Turkey.
Does he need a magnifying glass?
lol
"note that the yearly numbers of Shia/Sunni murders dwarfs the number of Palis killed by Israel"
Yes, that is true. Often, a single Al-Qaeda inspired Wahhabi fanatic in Iraq or Pakistan will take down more innocent Muslims in ONE ATTACK than one or two YEARS of Israeli-Palestinian clashes.
In spite of this, I have yet to see a major protest against attacks like this anywhere in the Middle East. Indonesia, for example, went ballistic when that crackpot pastor in Florida lit a copy of the Koran on fire, but they have nothing to when "insurgents" mass murder scores of Shiite pilgrims in Iraq or when Khamenei declares peaceful protesters "enemies of God".
That is not a fair comparison, because there are only 5 million jews and 3 million Palestinians, so there will be fewer casualties as compared to a civil war between 1.5 billion muslims.
What an unfair way by Zionazi sympathizers to minimize the crimes of the racist state of so-called Israel.
The fact is back in 1930 Palestine was 90% arab and 10% jewish and now it's the other way around thanks to the policies of ethnocide and aggression
It ain't the other way round Dolly, there are far more Arabs in Palestine than there were in 1930. The change in demographics arose from Jewish immigration, not from Arab refugees who mostly went to the West Bank and Gaza. The lucky one stayed in Israel and became Israeli citizens. Ever wondered how many of them would like their towns and villages to be incorporated into a Palestinian State?
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